In Re: [Islam in Europe] Antwerp: Report on extremist mosques and organizations

I added the following comments to Antwerp: Report on extremist mosques and organizations:

Comment 1:

Just a wee bit tendentious. 

The Deobandi Movement started as a modernizing anti-colonial Islamic reform movement that supported the creation of an independent India and rejected the Islamic separatism the resulted in the creation of Pakistan.

Comment 2:

It is good to have such intelligent comments. 

Yes, many of the students recruited by Mullah Omar come from Deobandi funded schools because the Deobandi movement created schools in Waziristan in order to alleviate poverty. 

Yet the Taliban tended to be close to the Saudi and Pakistani government while Deobandi affiliated groups and parties albeit generally moderate have generally tended to be distrustful of the Pakistani government. 

The Saudis have generally been dubious of Deobandi-affiliated groups because of the sufi origins of the original Deobandi movement.

The material in the report above is so confused that I have to consider it part of a generalized effort to demonize any intellectual movement among Muslims.

Comment 3:

One could write books about Deobandi thinking and its influence. That particular article is so misguided that it is hard to know where to start. 

Take a look at Shasha Rejects Kavon’s Zionist Apologetics for a similar problem. (Kavon was probably less wrong than this article about Deobandis.) 

In any case, the key word is influence. Just as one cannot escape the influence of Martin Luther in protestantism, one that hangs out at Mosques with an Indo-Pak membership, simply will not escape the influence of Deobandi thought.

Comment 4:

The Deobandi School of thought emphasizes service to God, spiritual improvement, scholarship, modernization, coexistence with non-Muslims, knowledge of secular subjects, good citizenship, democratic principles, anti-colonialism, and opposition to terrorism. 

Darululoom, Deoband

Darul Ulum Online

I went over the websites. To put it in the Jewish context, the ideology could be described as a combination of torah im derekh eretz (Hirsh) with musar (Salanter). 

The actual Darululoom Deoband could be analogized to the famous Novardok Yeshiva with the qualification that Darululoom is more open to secular learning and puts greater emphasis on the ethical treatment of non-believers.

Comment 5:

Sounds like Orthodox Judaism. I guess Orthodox Judaism should be considered primitive and pitiless.

Comment 6:

Ulama denounce Taleban decision provides the closest I can find to a Darululoom Deobandi official statement on Bamiyan: 

True to his habit, Maulana Rabey Nadwi, rector of the world-famous Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama, who spoke to the MG from his Rai Bareli residence, said that it is a political as well as religious issue; so I am nobody to comment upon the matter. I am not a Mufti so I cannot issue a fatwa and I am not a politician so I cannot make any comment .

BTW, Thornton’s History of the Middle East Database: Persecution of the Jews in Europe puts him in the realm of fantasy and mythology.

Comment 7:

Darululoom Deoband and educating women

Comment 8:

It is worth mentioning that ambiguous attitudes toward the education of women are found in Judaism.

Check out Mishna Sota 3:4.

Ben `Azzai takes the position that “a man ought to give his daughter a knowledge of the Torah.”

Rabbi Eliezer states: “Whoever teaches his daughter Torah, it is as if he teaches her wantonness.”

Shabbat 33b tells us that women are light-minded and is exactly paralleled by a hadith from the Prophet Muhammad (SAAS — al-Bukhari, al-Jami` al Sahih Kitab al-Hayd, Bab 6), who refers to women as naqisat `aql wa-din.

Comment 9:

I find no evidence of major inherent male female mental variation, but the issue of differences between men and women is something on which Christian, Muslim, and Jewish believers tend to agree (as does Larry Summers).

Obviously, when I was trying to drive Summers out of the Harvard presidency terminology like ignorant misogynist and stupidity might have been appropriate — I didn’t use it, but others did.

In sociological and political economic discourse, such terminology is less useful.

Comment 10:

It hardly takes a Harvard education to recognize Thornton’s specious argument.

A bunch of unfortunate incidents, whose context is absent and which are widely separated in time and space, is nothing but propaganda to distract from the crimes that Zionists are committing right now

  1. by brutalizing the native population of Palestine and
  2. by undermining the political and economic system of the USA via corruption, conspiracy and manipulation.

In addition, if I am willing to ignore context as well as separation in space and time, I could come up with an even more impressive list of sufferings of Christians.

After studying Judaica for over 40 years, I can safely say that there simply is no unified phenomenon of anti-Semitism extending back in time for thousands of years.

Anyone peddling such intellectual snake-oil probably has a sinister agenda.

Comment 11:

Controlling the terminology is a way of manipulating or dominating the discussion.

Obviously Zionists attempt to give negative connotations to Wahhabi because the Saudis are competitors with Israel for the status of most important ME ally.

Likewise, Zionists want to make it easier for the US military to kill Afgans and Pakistanis. Thus Deobandi must be given a negative connotation.

I prefer the following terminology.

Westernizing Islamism,


Revolutionary Islamism,

Arab Jihadism,

Revolutionary Jihadism.

Collision: Jewish-Zionist, Arab-Islamic Transnational Politics shows how to use this terminology.

Comment 12:

Whenever I check out one of these ridiculous stories, it invariably turns out to be a complete fabrication or so distorted that it might as well have been a complete fabrication: Disinformation from ABC News.

If you want to engage in anecdotal demonization, we can discuss Jewish black-market organ-vending in the NY NJ area.

And any discussion of murderous terrorism in the ME has to start with the murderous genocidal program of racist E. Europeans to steal Palestine from the native population with justification through the slicing and dicing of Christian and Jewish scripture.

Comment 13:

No, you are the vicious racist bigot that must be treated with scorn and derision by all decent human beings.

The easiest way to explain Islamic practices is by references to Judaism because both religions are sacred law based, and the sacred laws of both religions are very similar.

Yet if one tries to follow the natural procedure, one gets accused of racism or anti-Semitism because Zionists don’t want either an honest discussion of Judaism, Jewish history, or Zionist behavior.

The subtext of the Islamophobic discourse is demonization of Islam in order to legitimize and to justify the continued existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish ethnic fundamentalist state.

I am tired of this dishonesty and prefer that the Zionist subtext be brought out into the open for public discussion.

Comment 14:

Zionists believe that Jews have the right to plunder and to kill non-Jews with impunity. I can identify statements to that effect from Zionists (e.g., Vladimir Dubnow) at least as far back as 1881.

To put the racist inhumanity of Zionism into perspective, referring to the principles of post-WW2 Nuremberg Law can elucidate.

Nuremberg Law clearly criminalizes the territorial Judaization that Zionists have planned since the 19th century and that they have undertaken since the first war of Zionist aggression in 1947-8 . The Nuremberg indictment of the Nationalist Socialist Government charges (International Military Tribunal, vol. 1, p. 63):

In certain occupied territories purportedly annexed to Germany the defendants methodically and pursuant to plan endeavored to assimilate these territories politically, culturally, socially, and economically into the German Reich. They endeavored to obliterate the former national character of these territories. In pursuance of their plans, the defendants forcibly deported inhabitants who were predominantly non-German and replaced them by thousands of German colonists.

If State of Israel replaces GermanyZionist State replaces German Reich, and Jewish replaces German, this count applies to Zionist goals from the start of the Zionist movement until the present day.


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